FAQ: Why do you feminists hate men?
Feminists hate misogyny, not men. Kinda like that “hate the sin, not the sinner” thing, sometimes it’s easy to separate the behaviour from the enactor and sometimes it’s not.
But we know that not all men are pits of misogyny, so if you aren’t acting out misogyny, then it’s not about you. We also know that men who sometimes fall into minor unthinking habits of misogyny are not comparable to men who are violent and irredeemable misogynists. It’s understandable how sometimes criticisms of misogynists come across as generalisations about all men, when read by someone who isn’t used to the jargon shorthand and feminist perspectives. Time to lurk and learn.
Ilyka’s post: Occasionally conversations with my man are instructive is instructive here.
“A lot of the guys written about on feminist blogs do things I would never do.”"Then don’t identify with them. It’s not about you! You stand to pee, they stand to pee, beyond that, what’s the commonality?”
Of course, the man-hating accusation is not always made by bewildered men of general goodwill. It is frequently made by men who simply don’t want to hear any criticism of their privileged status-quo.
Related Reading:
- FAQ: Isn’t “the Patriarchy” just some conspiracy theory that blames all men, even decent men, for women’s woes?
- FAQ: Aren’t feminists just sexists towards men?
- FAQ: Can men be feminists?
Introductory:
- Witchy-Woo (Well I’ll Go To The Foot Of My Stairs…): I’ve had a lovely day
Clarifying Concepts:
- On how stereotypes are insulting to men:
This is how Sam describes your average single man: “messy, greedy, sports-loving, junk-food-scoffing and as womanizing”. Presumably a relationship somehow transforms Homo Singlemanus into a tidy, selfless gourmet who only watches sport sometimes, tosses a mean salad and only has eyes for you.
Seriously, my dear male readers, aren’t you sick of this rubbish? Don’t you get pissed off every time you turn on the TV and there you are, being presented as some idiot who needs a woman to work any domestic appliance in the home? Aren’t you over the idea that you need to be tidied up and polished by the love of a good woman?
[Kate Jasper (Moment to Moment): And you think feminists hate men?.]
tigtog
tekanji
shakesville
but you’ve gotta swallow your own medicine.
I did. I made the choice of that which would improve my situation the most, and followed through with it.
Being reluctant to trust women: totally normal for the recently betrayed. Being angry at your ex: totally normal for the recently betrayed.
Recently, yes. Every single time? Also, yes. Am I exaggerating? No.
I think I’m quite completely justified in not trusting women, at all.
Being angry at a feminists: embarrassing and counterproductive.
No, it was more that I was curious about the double-standard being applied.
It’s offensive to assume that it is NOT your responsibility to avoid contributing, even through silent complicity, to the attitude that leads to rape.
ON ANOTHER WEBSITE, ALLEGEDLY. Nobody here has called you a misogynist for being mistrustful of women. You allege that somewhere else that you haven’t linked to did so. Without being able to read the conversation, we can’t have an opinion on the dynamics of that interaction.
That’s your three comments for today, by the way, D.
Updated to add:
This conversation does bring up some interesting points on the distinctions between wariness, mistrust/distrust and antipathy.
Wariness is a totally rational response to previous instances of harm, either physical or emotional.
Generalised mistrust/distrust, while understandable and natural, is less rational and more of a rationalisation of a deeper anxiety about the potential for harm from another person.
When that generalised mistrust/distrust degenerates into a broad contempt, disgust and antipathy, then we have the fully irrational and non-constructive response of hating.
What happens, over and over, is that women who express simple wariness are accusing of general mistrust and hating. There is a very big difference, but the distinctions are not being made. Rael failed to make those distinctions in the comment that initiated this whole discussion of trust. He misinterpreted the story of the particular blogger he was paraphrasing in any case (“She has a total inablity to trust men”), as that blogger actually did have a long term relationship with a man whom she was able to trust despite her earlier traumas and subsequent wariness.
I’m also reminded of this earlier discussion on what rape apologism/denialism actually involves.
This is what the trivialising of rape consists of – victim-blaming, denials, excuses and the refusal to adequately examine issues of active consent.
Male allies are asked to avoid contributing to trivialising rape in this fashion. If a man is already not hanging around with men who trivialise rape, then that man is not part of the problem. If it’s not about you then it’s not about you.
It’s offensive to assume that it is NOT your responsibility to avoid contributing, even through silent complicity, to the attitude that leads to rape.
I don’t rape. As said, I am not a cop, a therapist, or a rapist. That’s the extent of my responsibility.
Wariness is a totally rational response to previous instances of harm, either physical or emotional.
Generalised mistrust/distrust, while understandable and natural, is less rational and more of a rationalisation of a deeper anxiety about the potential for harm from another person.
When that generalised mistrust/distrust degenerates into a broad contempt, disgust and antipathy, then we have the fully irrational and non-constructive response of hating.
Generalised mistrust/distrust does not equal hating. Even if it did, who are you to say what is or is not constructive? It’s constructive if the individual says it is.
Or are you only worrying about how someone else’s personal business affects you?
Also, of course distrust is a response (very rational) about being concerned about future harm. If you touch a hot stove, and it burns, you learn not to touch the hot stove again.
What happens, over and over, is that women who express simple wariness are accusing of general mistrust and hating.
So are men.
Generalised mistrust/distrust does not equal hating. Even if it did, who are you to say what is or is not constructive? It’s constructive if the individual says it is.
Oh yeah. Also, sadly, there is this little issue about power that every people with the ‘let’s be gender-blind!’ argument forgets. Women’s experience is not the same as men’s experience, so their respective ‘mistrust’ isn’t the same and doesn’t have the same effects. Women are the less powerful group, usually these groups experiment more abuse from than (and from) the powerful group. They mistrust men? Well, they don’t have their privileges. Minorities aren’t wary of majorities because one of them cheated romantically. Minorities live all their lives experimenting (different kinds of) dehumanization and disadvantage from being the ‘other’ to the majority.
What happens, over and over, is that women who express simple wariness are accusing of general mistrust and hating.
So are men.
Do we have to have this conversation every single time a new man comes here?
As I said, if you already are not associating with men who trivialise rape and marginalise rape victims, then this is not about you. However, there’s a whole culture out there which does do these things, and men who want to work against rape know that there is more that they can do.
From a meme that went around in 2006, which is called “Only Rapists Can Stop Rape”, there is a list of 25 items. The first 16 are all aimed at actual rapists, but the other 9 are aimed at men who are not rapists but who might find themselves in a situation where other men are displaying rape or rape approval behaviour:
I am thankful that some women here have made the distinction between men who hate women and men who love women. It makes it easier to hear the angry words some feminists have spoken and written and understand “it’s not about me.”
Personally, I know that women can be every bit as smart and talented and hard working as their male counterparts. I see them as equals. Nothing angers me more than men who perpetrate acts of violence against women. I love women and I hope that one of these days I will have the love of a good woman who loves men as much as I love women.
Personally, I think it is important that womens’ issues be addressed. It’s also important that mens’ issues be addressed. The one regret I have about people in feminist and masculist movements is that they tend to see things as a zero sum game. It is better to work together with each other, get you what you want, get us what we want, and when there is conflict, sit down and work things out.
While I definitely empathize with women who have been abused, I hope that women never forget about the men who love women and would risk their lives to protect them.
Mark, it seems like you’re taking some excellent steps towards becoming an ally for women. Because you want to be an ally, I’m going to bring up a few issues that your comment raised for me in the hopes that you will think about my points, and not dismiss them out of hand like some men who don’t want to work with women to create a better society for everyone.
Most feminists don’t see advancing women’s liberation as a “zero sum game.” Many, many feminists talk about ways society can be better for everyone, including destroying harmful stereotypes about masculinity. What makes you think feminism is “zero sum”?
Also, have you ever tried to talk to your typical Men’s Rights Advocate? I have, and they don’t seem very interested in working things out- their negotiation strategies involve trying to insult me with variations on “you’re a girl!!!!”
Lastly, while you probably meant well, your final comment reminding women who were abused to remember the “men who love women and would risk their lives to protect them,” is offensive. We don’t want protection given to us by good men, we want bad men to stop committing acts of violence. If we need a man to protect us, that severely limits our personal freedom. Think about how you would feel if the situation was reversed. And try to realize that as a man, you should not be giving advice to women who are struggling to survive abuse, especially “remember the men” advice. We’ve been hurt, abused, our trust betrayed, and a man is telling us, “but we’re not all like that?” You’d get a much better response actually doing something that demonstrates that not all men are like that, such as starting a men’s anti-rape group. I hope you’re able to read this and get past a totally normal defensive reaction to consider what I’m saying. We all are constantly learning about feminism and being allies, we all make mistakes, the thing that makes us good feminists/allies is learning from them rather than defending them.
Dear Mark,
I find your letter reassuring. I found no offense whatsoever in the statement you made about protecting the woman you love. Women can also protect the man they love as well. I don’t see your comment as women needing a man to protect us. You are just showing that you have passion for women. I am a strong feminist and I find myself getting in these moods where I hate all men. That is counter productive and not healthy. My poor boyfriend is paying for past mistakes. He has learned a great deal about women because I have given him a perspective about our society and others that no other woman has done. They just stopped seeing him rather than educating him. Slowly but surely, we can educate men about issues that promote a woman’s cause and not set them back into the dark ages.
Mark, could you explain your reasoning behind this “zero sum game” thing? I have to admit that it sounds to me like concern trolling, but I do want to give you the benefit of the doubt and let you explain. How is it that you look at people who are constantly repeating “Patriarchy hurts men, too,” who are just about the only people who speak out for male victims of rape and don’t think it’s a joke, who are always talking about how traditional perceptions of masculinity and are pretty much the only people who actually care about how men suffer under a an unequal society, then call it a “zero sum game”?
The only thing I can think of is that you’re responding to some feminist complaining about the “What about the men?” phenomenon. In which case, you can look here:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/
As for your claim that being loved by a man means being kept under his wing (and that I should even be happy and grateful for it), please see here:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/faq-female-privilege/