102 Comments

FAQ: if women like sex just as much as men do, then why is rape so bad? It’s just rougher sex, right?

AKA: Women like it, really! They say they don’t, but they do!

A: I’m not joking, some people still do use this argument. Even if most of them are just trolls looking to stir up outrage, this trope is still out there needing some debunking.

    Potential PTSD Trigger Warning

OK, let’s go through this step by step:

  • Imagine your favourite dessert. You know, the one you almost always end up ordering at a restaurant even though you’ve had it heaps of times before. That one dessert of which you always want second or even third servings. The one you ask friends and family to make for your birthday.
  • Really imagine it. The taste of it. The feel of it on your lips and tongue and sliding down your throat. The lingering aftertaste. How much you’ll enjoy it the next time you have a chance to eat some.
  • Imagine the surroundings. Are you alone, savouring it all to yourself? Are you with friends, all enjoying sharing this delectable dessert? Are you in a lovely cafe or restaurant, enjoying the ambience and the service, and the accompanying coffee or liqueur?
  • Imagine how many servings you are going to have this time. Will you eat it fast or slow? Will you eat it all, or take some home with you for later?
  • NOW imagine someone forcing you to eat your favourite dessert. It’s not a joke. You can’t get away. They are too strong for you, and they are kneeling across your chest and pinning your arms. Maybe they have threatened you with a weapon to get you to this place, or perhaps tricked you with an offer of your favourite dessert and then overpowered you once they got you alone.
  • Imagine that they are not just offering you your favourite dessert in any way that you can control how you bite it, chew it and swallow it. This person is shoving your favourite dessert down your throat. With a stick.
  • Imagine that your favourite dessert down is being shoved down your throat so hard and fast that you are choking on it, and you can’t take in quite enough air in between mouthfuls. You are going dizzy from lack of oxygen, yet you’re afraid to gulp air too deeply in case dessert gets into your lungs.
  • Imagine how the stick is bruising, scraping and lacerating your throat as more and more of your favourite dessert is being shoved down your throat.
  • Imagine how the taste of blood from the lacerations in your throat is mingling with the taste of your favourite dessert.
  • Imagine how your teeth are being chipped and broken by the stick, and how they are mingling with the dessert so that you are swallowing them as well.
  • Imagine how your lips are being split and bruised by the stick as the dessert continues to get shoved in your mouth.
  • Imagine how you are squirming to try and avoid the next mouthful, how you are crying, how great streams of snot are streaming down your cheeks, how your eyes are begging for the person to stop but the person just won’t stop.
  • Worse: imagine that you are so frightened that the person will kill you that you just lie there, unresisting, unmoving, trying hard not to really be there in your body because then the stick shoving dessert down your throat doesn’t hurt quite so badly.
  • Imagine how in either of the above – squirming fear or immobile shock – you are totally aware that your lack of power to stop the person, and your terror and pain, is what they want from you most. The dessert is irrelevant except for being a way to hurt you and degrade you through your powerlessness.
  • Imagine that you survive the forced-feeding, and that as your attacker leaves you, either in the place of attack or having dropped you off somewhere to make your own way home, that they mock you by talking about how wonderful your favourite dessert tasted, and how lucky you were that they gave you more of it than you’d ever had before.

And now for the kicker:

  • Imagine that when you tell people what happened, and how bad it was, and how scared you were and how hurt your body is, they look at you blankly, and say: “But what’s the problem? Everybody knows that you really, really like that dessert!”

Think about how long it might take for you, or whether you would ever want, to eat your favourite dessert again, because every time you saw it, let alone smelt it or tasted it, you would remember that attack by the force-feeder.

Then stop repeating or believing bullshit about how rape is really just rougher than usual sex, things just “get a bit out of hand” and no real harm done.

The metaphor above deliberately uses the roughest imagery possible of sticks and broken teeth and lacerations, which I expect some people might object to as not the case in many acquaintance-rapes where women are left without physical injuries. I suggest that anyone tempted to make such objections really think a bit harder about the difference between doing something when you choose to do it, and enjoying doing it when it is your choice, versus being forced to do it at someone else’s choice with no care for your safety or dignity, and that someone being gratified at you being powerless to stop them.


Concept Credit: the above imagination points are a paraphrase and extension of a dialogue between Mavin and her younger brother in The Song of Mavin Manyshaped, by Sheri S. Tepper.

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About tigtog

writer, singer, webwrangler, blogger, comedy tragic | about.me/vivsmythe

102 comments on “FAQ: if women like sex just as much as men do, then why is rape so bad? It’s just rougher sex, right?

  1. That leaving aside the fact that sex to women isn’t the same thing as a dessert would be to a man. It was always used to dehumanize women.

    But I digress. That have to be a troll, people can be THAT stupid. At least I hope so.

  2. Well put. I think one of the things that makes sexual assault so traumatizing for a lot of women is that someone would take something that’s supposed to be about pleasure or fun or affection or all the above and uses it as a tool to hurt you.

  3. Unfortunately, this speaks to a language problem that I’ve seen feminists hand-wring over superficially, but I haven’t seen any real focus on the underlying issues.

    “Rape” means a violent, battering assault of the sort you mention. It’s also used to define the less violent but no less injurious methods of incapacitating a person and removing their choice from the equation. According to some feminists, it also includes any sexual touching outside explicit consent, regardless of how it ends up. (E.G: One person fondling another without asking, whereupon the second person immediately leaves.) It’s also filtered down to a generic synonym for “brutalize”, a way to say emphatic rough sex (I hear this version used by more women than men, coincidentally), and in certain feminist circles something to equate to anything they consider anti-feminist.

    The problem here being that the word is being quickly eroded by overuse on one end, and by jarring frame-jumping on the other. Not that I have any brilliant solutions for mass linguistic reform here, but all the same it’s not something best left be.

  4. Good analogy — but with “think about whether you would ever want to eat your favourite dessert again” I think it might break down a bit since it’s nowhere near universal (fortunately) that rape victims are unable to have fulfilling sex lives after being raped.

    Maybe a closer analogy would be one that’s not about a particular dessert but over something more general like “food”? Since a dessert is only one dish of many but I can’t see sex as being in the same category (just one experience of many which are equal). On the other hand food is necessary for survival…Analogies are hard…

  5. Very powerful imagery. Thanks for writing this.

  6. Thanks for the comments, everyone. I accept that the analogy is flawed, but then it is just an analogy: I never expected it to be perfect (an absolutely perfect analogy would no longer be an analogy after all).

    On the whole, I’ll let the stand post as is, although I’m more than happy for others to flesh out distinctions which the analogy fails to cover in comments. I just remembered reading the original dialogue in the Tepper novel and finding it powerful, and I thought that an extension of it could work well for this FAQ.

    Michael, I do take your point about the “ever” in that line you highlight. I’ll adjust that.

  7. I can’t help but think this argument of “why is it so bad?” is also being furthered by the rape culture and “rape porn,” and this mystical idea that somehow, even if a woman says no, that the sensation of sex during a rape would eventual give her enough pleasure to “give in” to her body’s desire.

    I am still bothered by the idea that rape is “rough.” With the whole “gray rape” culture, rape isn’t just some masked person jumping out of the bush to assault a person. Yet, you’ve still got idiots like Laura Session Stepps talking about how “gray” it is.

  8. It’s also filtered down to a generic synonym for “brutalize”, a way to say emphatic rough sex (I hear this version used by more women than men, coincidentally), and in certain feminist circles something to equate to anything they consider anti-feminist.

    Could you say more about this, TLO? I don’t really understand what you’re saying here.

  9. I’d welcome some clarification from TLO as well. I didn’t understand the argument either.

  10. I hear this version used by more women than men, coincidentally

    No. Seriously? Why would that be? I think that “emphatic rough sex” maybe just wasn’t well received by one of the ends.

    I think I understood them. But it’s just plain disturbing.

    They are saying that… non-consensual sex isn’t always rape, and we just hate anti-feminist things so we overuse words on them!

    I will be offended is that isn’t disvowelled.

  11. This was very powerful, thank you for writing it. I can’t stand when people use that argument. I don’t see “rape” and “sex” as the same thing. Because sex is an act of passion and lust, while rape is an act of violence and domination. They’re extremely different.

  12. Noir, I don’t think that TLO is saying that non-consensual sex isn’t always rape, s/he’s saying that some people call consensual rough sex rape simply because it was brutal even though they consented to it, which confuses things. But I’d like some clarification on TLO’s meaning. As to the confusions in terminology regarding different types of sexual assault being described as rape, that’s why so many laws have been rewritten to remove the crime of “rape” and replace it with a variety of crimes of sexual assault. It’s to remove any terminology confusions.

    Amy, Chris Clarke wrote a nice apothegm regarding the distinction between violence and sex in rape:

    I’ve said this before, but: if you hit someone over the head with a banjo that’s violence, not bluegrass. Using a sexual organ as a weapon doesn’t make the violence “sex.”

  13. Really? Because the “this speaks to..” with which they start they comment, and..

    “it also includes any sexual touching outside explicit consent, regardless of how it ends up. (E.G: One person fondling another without asking, whereupon the second person immediately leaves.”

    It really make me think otherwise. Like ‘it’s not rape if there is not penetration!’ argument.

    And I think the ‘emphatic rough sex’ has to have explicit consent.

  14. I really like this post and it’s now one of my favorite posts ever about rape. It really gets to how tramatic the experience is and makes it easy to understand for anyone regardless of gender, age, etc. Kind of reminds me of a presentation last year to try and get to me just how awful rape is. The presentation was also very explicit.

    I do like Michael’s point about food being better than desert, but the piece is still fantastic and paints a great job about how much you enjoy your favorite desert.

  15. Noir, really. I read it as a language-nerd comment about purely linguistic distinctions between sexual assaults generally and the historical meaning of rape. I don’t read it as apologism of any sort for sexual assaults.

    I myself prefer to generally use the term sexual assault because it is so much more precise and avoids any argument over whether such and such an act was “really rape” – everyone knows that an unwanted grope is sexual assault even if they wouldn’t agree that it was rape.

    While there’s that much difference in our opinions over interpretation, it doesn’t get disemvowelled. I’d still like some clarification from TLO if sie is still reading.

  16. It’s fine. I think it struck me bad because that’s a weird comment to make in a post like this. So maybe I interpreted it wrong.

  17. A belated comment: a couple of you suggested that dessert is too specialised a comparison.

    I chose it quite specifically because sex for enjoyment (rather than sex intended for procreation by committed partners) really is as much an indulgence and a luxury as dessert. There’s nothing wrong with liking sex-for-fun often, not at all, but we simply do not need it in the way we need wholesome food. Hook-up culture specifically is an artefact of exploring adult independence in those first few years away from home, and most of us find it less consuming as we start to pursue other adult ambitions.

    But the main reason for the choice of dessert as the prime analogy is that a large part of the whole rape culture apologetics revolves around the idea that men “need” sex like they need food, which simply is not true.

  18. Great post. Comparisons rarely work but this one does. Thank you.

  19. Wow that’s really powerful. and all the more alarming in light of the ‘rape as chocolate cake’ crap from that BNP blogger… http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2008/04/london_assembly

  20. Imagine having a desert you have never tasted before, but which everyone raves about and which you have been anticipating with excitement, shoved down your throught in this way. Then that desert is suddenly taboo, you don’t know if you can get it without that hot sauce you didn’t like, or even if you would like the desert on its own. So you never order that desert, because you’ll be embarrassed if you don’t like it.

    And yes, it did trigger…but I battle on.

    Thank you for writing this, it is a brilliant way to help people understand.

  21. [...] and I was offended, apalled and confused. Then I just happened to visit a  great blog called Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog which answers many FAQs. There was one question, “If women like sex as much as men do, then [...]

  22. [...] can’t state the error of the “rape is just harder sex” any better than tigtog at finallyfeminism does. i encourage you to read more on this blog, but i’ve cut and pasted this particular [...]

  23. [...] been covered up by the military and KBR (and KBR, again), immigration officials, and many more. The coverage of rape myths has continued to remain popular, despite the thousands of women who have experienced [...]

  24. [...] of them mentioning the right way to compare chocolate cake to rape. In fact, I distinctly remember a very good chocolate cake analogy to rape. So, let’s [...]

  25. TLO, on March 18th, 2008 at 10:27 am Said:
    Unfortunately, this speaks to a language problem that I’ve seen feminists hand-wring over superficially, but I haven’t seen any real focus on the underlying issues.

    “Rape” means a violent, battering assault of the sort you mention.

    This is clearly neanderthal trollspeak.
    He is saying that if you were not beaten or killed, then it isn’t really rape. That was a common argument in 1960.
    He claims that the underlying issue is the problem of handwringing feminists calling inappropriate touching ‘rape’. Except that they don’t.
    Oddly enough, it has become common for men to call losing a game being raped.
    He finishes up by declaring that linguistic reform is the answer. Straw, pitchfork, troll!

  26. You know what sucks? When you’ve been raped at a young age by the opposite gender because you are gay.

    “We’ll show you what you’re missing.”

    A bucket of charm, I assure you.

  27. Thank you so much for writing this. It’s an even better analogy than “The ‘Rape’ Of Mr. Smith.”

    I don’t think anyone could not finally “get it” after reading this.

  28. Here is a great site to check out and also a sneak preview of May’s “People Who Care” page with a Christina Ricci interview about her work with RAINN (Rape Abuse and Incest National Network): http://nonprofitshoppingmall.com/people-who-care/christina-ricci

    Go to the site and shop and a percent of your sale will go to RAINN!

    Pass this on to everyone!!!

  29. Joey said:

    Though sex is considered a human delight, it’s only a delight when it’s with someone of your choice. I’m sure not one person would mine having sex with someone they really want sex from. But rape is forced intercourse with someone you probably “don’t” want to have touching you.

    I suspect Joey may be a troll because of the invitation in his post, but in case I’m wrong, I disagree with this comment. It’s certainly possible to be raped by someone you might have chosen to have consensual sex with. Even if you have willingly had sex with that person before, sex without consent is rape,

  30. Woland, good catch. I’d actually meant to delete Joey’s comment as obvious trolldroppings, but I somehow approved it instead. Deleted now, belatedly. Now we can just read your useful rebuttal of that one particular nasty assumption in the comment, without being bothered by the rest of it.

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    [off-topic abusive rant disemvoweled by moderator]

  32. Might I ask the purpose of taking away vowels from troll posts rather than deleting them?

  33. Sometimes it’s just what I prefer to do. It’s a record that stays in my database in case it morphs to another persona for a start, so that I have IP numbers etc for comparison.

  34. Thank you very much for this.

    My friends tell me that sex is the greatest thing since, well, just the greatest thing. I wish I knew what they were talking about!!!

    People who sexually assult others should be incinerated.

  35. Great post!
    I have guy friends who joke about rape all the time and frankly, it’s not a funny topic at all. Our society just doesn’t get it…

    And I know men are raped as well, but the overwhelming majority of people who are raped are women…in particular young women.

    The effects of rape last beyond a lifetime. If you’ve read “Cunt” by Inga Muscio, she discusses how her mother’s rape affected how she raised her daughters, and in turn, will affect how her daughters raise their daughters. Rape is more than physical…it’s forced psychological submission as well.

    Once again…thank you for the post
    http://feministreaction.blogspot.com/

  36. 1. Rape is the power to control and to take what ever that person wants with no empathy at all for their victims feelings or pleasure, to fulfill their own demented sense of self gratification.

    2. Loving sex is when two or more people indulge in the act of pleasuring each other with empathy towards each others feelings, emotions and sexual needs leaving all participants fulfilled on an emotional and sexual level.

    3. Procreation is only interested in a species survival and doesn’t care how this occurs (rape, loving sex, artificial insemenation ….) but only that it does occur.

    In my opinion the person that wrote the above FAQ has never experienced No.2 because there is no emotional and sexual fulfillment from No.1. That persons loss. I suggest that that person procreates into a jar to fulfill their self gratification which does no harm to another and may benefit someone else who is having trouble procreating.

  37. If you’re doing this for the trolls, why bother? I betcha more than half of them are playing devil’s advocate for kicks when they make that statement.

  38. Father Time, it’s not so much for the trolls as for the people who might fall for it.

  39. I see just one flaw in this answer: it paints too nice a picture of rape. Being force-fed one’s favourite desert suggests that under different conditions, the woman in question would have sex with the rapist. I’m very aware that this can be the case, but very often it is not.

    No, rape is being force fed any dessert. “But you like desert, I’ve heard how you crave cake!” they say. I dunno about you, but there some desserts I’d rather not eat, and some people I’d rather not have sex with.

    • You’re overthinking it, Alan. The favourite dessert in this analogy is the act of sexual intercourse, not the individual man involved.

      After all, if a woman has willingly had sex with a particular man once or even many times, that doesn’t mean that she’s necessarily willing to have sex with him any time he wants thereafter. It would still be rape if that man forced her at a later date when she had declined.

  40. An interesting analogy. It brings to my mind what I think is one problem with the word ‘rape’: it conveys imagery of violence (the favorite dessert being forced with a stick into your mouth, etc.), which I always thought were a necessary part of the definition of rape: you are being force-fed (under threat, with possible physical consequences if you don’t accept it) your favorite dessert. One problem I have, though — and please forgive in case this particular problem is not the main topic here — is that ‘rape’ now often means simply ‘against the will of the woman involved’, not necessarily ‘with threats/forceful means’. By that definition, it would still be ‘dessert rape’ if e.g. someone is convinced to eat the dessert just because the other person cooked it him/herself and ‘needs so much’ to feel loved and approved (by seeing the dessert being eaten) that s/he is ready to argue for it (‘please, do it for me, will you? don’t you love me?’). I have problems with that.

    • One problem I have, though — and please forgive in case this particular problem is not the main topic here — is that ‘rape’ now often means simply ‘against the will of the woman involved’, not necessarily ‘with threats/forceful means’.

      The laws have been amended to acknowledge that some threats are implicit rather than explicit, yes. e.g. locking the door of a room and simply refusing to open the door until the victim submits to sex. Also that if someone makes a person unconscious through non-violent administration of intoxicating/stupefying chemical substances, and then sexually penetrates them, then that is still rape even though no force or threat was involved. Even if the administrator of the chemicals commits penetration in the gentlest way possible, the removal of the capacity to consent is still present and that is what constitutes rape.

      My analogy still works if someone has indicated that they won’t unlock the door unless you stuff yourself with cake, or if you have been made unconscious and are then forcefed. Illegal imprisonment and/or imposed incapacitation are both coercive and no free consent is possible in those circumstances, and it is right that the law acknowledges this.

    • In the case of rape by deception, one could say that the dessert is poisoned, perhaps?

  41. That’s exactly why most of the old statutes against rape were amended to the current statutes against sexual assault, to make the definition of what is happening from a legal perspective more clear.

    Sexual Assault involves sexual touching and/or penetration through the use of force and/or threats of force (where force also includes imprisonment and/or the incapacitation of a victim via surreptitious pharmaceutical means).

    But sexual assault is not the only form of coercive sex. One can be coerced through manipulation of the sort you describe as well. Such manipulation may not be against the law, but whining and whining until an obviously reluctant partner acquiesces is arseholery of the highest degree that should never be defended. “It’s not actually rape” is a pretty piss-poor defence for demonstrating such a lack of consideration for another person’s wishes, IMO.

  42. Tigtog, I have a problem with that. ‘Whining’ is something children do all the time (to get attention, toys, etc.), and we don’t think it’s “arseholery of the highest degree”. It’s childish behavior, of course, and adults should be ashamed of it; discussion with arguments is always preferrable. But I think you’re overreacting to it, apparently only because the topic is sex. If the same ‘whining’ went on about another topic (say, about whether or not to watch a certain movie, or about whether or not to go on holidays to a certain place), I am sure you’d also condemn the whining partner, but I wonder if you’d still characterize it as “arseholery of the highest degree”. “Childishness” seems a better description to me.

    Also, the fact that “rape” now means sex against one’s wishes (so that one has to use “sexual assault” to cover what rape used to mean) is somewhat unhandy–the old imagery, including the no longer necessary violence or threat thereof, is still often conveyed. So the example given in this blog–force-feeding one’s favorite desert–makes use of a lot of violent imagery that, if I understand you correctly, would imply sexual assault, not rape. So the metaphor/analogy is actually not about rape, but about sexual assault; still the word ‘rape’ is used there. I see a certain “semantic confusion” in such uses, which I lament (basically: make the case against the worst possible example–violent sexual assault–but use the most inclusive word–rape–so that more, including non-violent, situations appear to be subsumed under the same analogy).

    • ‘Whining’ is something children do all the time (to get attention, toys, etc.), and we don’t think it’s “arseholery of the highest degree”. It’s childish behavior, of course,

      Yep, when children do it, it’s not arseholery, it’s just immaturity.

      But I think you’re overreacting to it, apparently only because the topic is sex. If the same ‘whining’ went on about another topic

      You might need to recalibrate your telepathy there, sport. Adults whining manipulatively to coerce their partner into doing things that they know their partner doesn’t want to do is always arseholery of the highest degree: it’s a betrayal of the reciprocity and trust that should exist in a committed relationship. That applies to women just as much as it does to men, and to every example of holidays and “my dream wedding” and movies and matching tattoos and all the “if you really loved me you’d do this” crap that any gender ever comes up with. (ETA: honest communication about what is important and that it means a lot is not just fine but essential, but whining about it after a refusal in order to turn it around? Arseholery.)

      Your second paragraph doesn’t even make sense. Since when did rape ever NOT mean “sex against one’s wishes”? What are you blathering about?

  43. This analogy is something of a failure…
    For one thing date-rape is now more or less harmless here. If a friend drugged me then fed me my favorite dessert I might be pissed but I’d get over it.

    Half of the metaphores only apply to violent rape, which is only a small subset. This should be adressed in the next version if you want this site to be taken seriously.

    • Note: I don’t mean that date-rape is harmless, far from it, it’s that this analogy makes it appear harmless.

  44. The analogy is a good one because it highlights the fact that it is not so much the act of sex itself which determines whether or not a rape has occured, but rather the mental point of view of the victim. So long as there is a lack of consent on the part of the victim, she (or he) has been violated.

    From a legal standpoint, the issue of perspective is problematic. Speaking for New Zealand at least, for the crime of rape to have occured, B must have had sexual connection with A without a belief on reasonable grounds that A consented. The problem with this approach is that it deals with the mindset of the rapist (or alleged rapist) and not that of the victim.

    • That’s interesting. So person A could have indicated that they do not consent but person B might not have recognised their action as being such. What is your solution?

      I mean, I suppose just being clear with your partner is the obvious one but you could envision situations where it could be complicated. For example person B might think that it will all go easier on them if they don’t antagonise A. Depending on the form this non-antagonistic action takes, A might interpret this as consent. Especially if this type of thing follows a mis-hearing or miscommunication then it could become very grey. I imagine this might be most relevant where both parties are intoxicated and are less able to process each other’s signals analytically.

      Obviously we wouldn’t want a situation where As are free to interpret just about anything B does as being approval (or can say they did). Equally if A has a reasonable reason for believing that B has consented then they haven’t knowingly perpetrated a crime.

      Is there a solution here?

  45. [...] FAQ: if women like sex just as much as men do, then why is rape so bad? It’s just rougher sex, rig… I’m not joking, some people still do use this argument. Even if most of them are just trolls looking to stir up outrage, this trope is still out there needing some debunking. [...]

  46. Rape is not a funny topic at all, I have friends who have been through it and it is a very serious subject and has absolutely nothing to do with “liking sex” or not. The effects that this will have on a women (or man) will last a lifetime and it doesn’t go away. Sex is only a pleasure when it is with someone of your choice, not when it is forced upon someone without concent and should not be referred to as a “dessert.”

  47. I agree that rape is not funny ever. I also dont believe it has anything to with liking sex. It is a phyisical assult on women and should be treated and punished as a crime.

  48. Kandela,

    It’s exceedingly difficult to strike the right balance between ensuring that people are not penalised for a crime which they did not intend to commit, and preventing rape. Most criminal justice systems are set up so that the defendant has the presumption of innocence. While this presumption has very strong justification, we all know that it can lead to individual cases of injustice.

    It all comes down to the interpretation of what is a ‘reasonable belief’ in consent. But the problem with rape trials is that often the victim feels as if they are the one who is on trial, having to go through the traumatic experience of proving that a rape occured in the courtroom. And on top of this, if a defendant can show that their belief in consent was ‘reasonable’, then irrespective of the victim’s mindset the defendant will walk.

    I can think of some modifications to the system which might help to rectify this situation, such as shifting the burden of proof to the defendant, or having a system in which even if someone is acquitted for rape they have a label against their name which says that they were accused of rape, so that if they are put on trial again a jury might find it less likely that their belief in consent was reasonable. All these options have serious implications for human rights in the context of a criminal trial, and that’s the dilemma. Like I say, the right balance has to be struck, but it is an ongoing difficulty as to which side of the line the law should come down on.

  49. I think the idea was pretty good. I mean this is meant for those who do not understand under no circumstances what damaging a rape is, no matter the level of the violence used during it.
    Men can’t possibly understand the pain and damage left after a rape has taken place, unless it is presented in a way they might understand. Although in one of Pascal Bruckner’s books there is a very interesting idea of how men can be abused through what they love most: sex, even by women – or, better said, it shows how the question used as a title can be applied for men(as subjects).

  50. I nearly started crying when I read this. Tigtog, I want to let you know that your analogy is the best one I have ever came across. I appreciate the readability, clarity, and concisiveness of all your articles. Thank you!
    * * *
    It is fascinating and enjoyable to read the discussions here. Clearly, court hearings for rape, the legal proceedings, is a complex issue. There is a point that I don’t think anyone else mentioned yet, which reminds me of the movie The Life of David Gale… How do we prevent an innocent man from being sentenced in the rare case that a woman accusses him of rape when no incident of any kind occured? The question is, what kind of process can allow an accurate, appropriate decision/ sentence in every trial? Given the difficulty in finding an answer to this question, it almost seems that it would be better to risk sentencing an innocent man for the sake of ensuring that justice is done in any case of this male-dominated crime that psychologically damages women in a painfully deep, lasting way.

  51. I was just informed about the existence of this site and I want to say I like what I am seeing so far. Kudos for the dino comic I saw earlier.

    But I have something else to say and I want someone to take it into consideration. This question, it seems to me, is sexist and so far I don’t see anyone challenging it’s premise. Maybe it is critical for this question to establish that women are raped by men – and indeed, patriarchy and sexist attitudes and behaviors that give it such power mean that a majority of rape victims are women.

    As a hetero (maybe bi… I don’t think I’ll ever be able to try that after what happened to me though, thanks a lot triggers for ruining so much) male victim, I am frequently slightly agitated at the lack of discussion concerning male rape. Maybe it is up to me and other men to write about it – no, it must be, but I guess I am just frustrated there aren’t more people talking about it.

    Although, I can see only a sliver of how it must have felt, must still feel, to be a woman and a survivor during some of the most repressive and oppressive decades of the last century.

    Maybe my whining is ridiculous considering the adversity all women have faced because of Patriarchy and the entrenchment of sexism in our society – but I want to bring light to the matter never the less. Now that you are thinking about it, maybe some discussion can occur. I wouldn’t know where to start though because after enduring it for years along with mental and physical abuse and repressing it all for about 5 years or so, I have only been dealing with this since January. So, making it through the day is about the best I can do right now.

    • This question, it seems to me, is sexist and so far I don’t see anyone challenging it’s premise.

      Many of the questions answered on this blog are sexist. They are frequently asked by sexist people. That’s why it is necessary to answer them.

      Your points about male rape victims are all valid, of course. The trauma of being attacked must obviously be just as bad for a man as for a woman, and there are even greater social barriers to reporting and seeking help. I hope that you find the help that you need.

  52. Something else: A.S. writes, that men can’t possibly understand what rape means to a victim unless it’s presented in a way they can understand.

    I encourage you to make a distinction between men and “people aren’t victims or survivors”. (I still use the word victim for myself because I wouldn’t say I have survived it until I stop planning to kill myself. So in time maybe I will use survivor in reference to myself.)

    The sentiment is honest, but I have had a few friends who are women and who have never been assaulted or raped and sometimes they don’t understand it either. I think the key issue is that unless it has happened to you, it is very hard to understand the personal trauma created by rape or assault. The same could be said for racism, sexism, homophobia, and any other form of oppression. Unless it has happened to you – you will never fully know or understand the consequences that victims will have to live with for the rest of their lives.

    But people who have survived can try to communicate some of the pain and difficulty in a way that others can sympathize with.

    I know this analogy of dessert is well-meaning but I’m not sure it is even close to adequate. I have never been good with analogies myself but I feel analogies are probably less than useful in conveying what a victim goes through.

    I have to say though, I have no monopoly on tact. If someone asked me this I would probably just beat the shit out of them with whatever was within arm’s reach.

    It may be more efficient to just cut to the chase: Rape victims suffer a variety of psychological, physical, and emotional pain because of the simple fact that their choice was taken away from them. It is wrong because they didn’t choose what happened to them. I would go on to mention or detail the specific ways victims suffer and then emphasize that everyone is different and will experience the trauma in different ways.

    • I know this analogy of dessert is well-meaning but I’m not sure it is even close to adequate. I have never been good with analogies myself but I feel analogies are probably less than useful in conveying what a victim goes through.

      This analogy is intended purely as a discussion opener, to get people whose minds are closed regarding the brutality of rape to consider the possibility that an act that is normally pleasurable can nonetheless be used maliciously to violate and degrade another person. It is certainly not meant to be any sort of final word on the experience of rape in general.

    • Look, where I live, men are never victims of rape themselves. Maybe just under aged boys, but I don’t include them in what I have said.
      Do you know what is the common answer given by men here to a woman who has been raped: well, you asked for it! You shouldn’t have dressed that way or you shouldn’t have done that! Or if it is a former boyfriend or a current one men are all like: what, you liked it and now you’re complaining about.
      Marital rape here has become an offense here in 2002, which says a lot.
      And without no offense directed at you, but men have done and are continuing to do a lot of harm to women in more than one sense. And most of them, as far as I saw, are taking quite a lot of pride in hurting and abusing women and no society in this world really punishes them.
      And by the way, no rape is not only about the choice, at least for most woman.
      I am sorry for what happened to you, but for women getting assaulted in numerous ways is like menstruation: if you’re a woman, at some point in time it will happen to you. Which, I’m sorry, but for men is not the same.

    • I hope I haven’t come across as too harsh to you, but as far as women I haven’t met one yet that could mock another one for being raped; but the vast majority of men do that.

      Mostly because when they think about sex and rape they see it from their point of view.
      Men have no way of being truly hurt through heterosexual intercourse, so they haven’t got the slightest idea what it is like for woman.
      And none of them makes the effort to think what is like to be the victim of a rape committed by a man. When that happens it’s a tragedy for men(here, the case is only in prisons as far as I know), but they still don’t understand women and continue to make fun of them and their sufferance.

      In a conversation with a friend, we were talking about why we think different of sex than men and she put it quit bluntly:
      she said – it’s like someone shoving their hand/fist down your throat, it won’t hurt their hand, but it will sure as hell damage your body. And she was referring to consensual intercourse!

      • >And none of them makes the effort to think of what is like to be the victim of rape committed by a man.

        None? That’s a pretty broad statement. Even if only a fraction of a percentage of men “make the effort”, that still means hundreds of millions of men fall outside of your stereotype.

        Also, it is worth noting that in the United States, rape of men outnumbers rape of women by a 3-to-1 margin. That’s right: for every rape that happens to a woman, there are three rapes that have happened to a man. And yes, as you mentioned, that is mostly in some form of government custody, but does that make it any less real? Because someone gets picked up for having a joint, they get thrown in a cage and gang-raped every single night for five years? Or perhaps they only get held in county lockup for a night, and only get gang-raped for four hours, then released the next morning. How many guys have you known who spent a night in jail at some point in their life? A little too drunk one night? Or maybe they got picked up at a protest? Think they’d tell you if they got raped?

        And how would you like it if your rape was only ever mentioned as the butt of a joke? Turn on any sitcom and you can hear jokes about men being raped in prison. We would be outraged if network TV routinely joked about women’s rape, but we all just laugh along when it happens to men. So, you’re right when you say, “for men is not the same”. It’s worse. Much, much worse.

    • Just being beaten leaves scars that last a lifetime. Rape is much worse.

  53. The vast majority of men do not joke about rape. That is completely untrue.
    I have also never met anyone male or female, who really thinks that anyone should think of rape as just rougher sex.
    That is sick.

  54. I’m sorry for anyone who has experienced that, and I don’t mean to be dismissive, but you simply cant say that the vast majority of men joke about rape…. you just cant. Its not true. Do you have brothers? a father uncles? any men that you don’t dismiss as twisted ? I personally get really tired of feeling judged for other peoples sins…. because of my sex.

    • I hear my first joke about rape when I was 10 years old.
      “Confucius he say rape not possible: woman with skirt up run faster than man with trousers down”

      It was told at a campfire by an older man in my family to general approval as indicated by loud laughter. It was a very popular joke at school for years afterwards.

      Tough luck for any woman who’s been deliberately drugged, or bashed, or who is also wearing jeans that have been pulled down, eh? Of course, when I pointed this out, I was accused of “spoiling the joke”.

      That’s just the tip of the iceberg. Lots of men tell jokes about rape, but “they don’t mean anything by it” and we “should just get a sense of humour”. If you haven’t heard such jokes you either don’t get out much or you haven’t been listening.

  55. Yes, I have a father who called me a whore when I was ten and an uncle who tried to rape me. Plus other two sexual assaults on the street, in broad day light. Maybe I am just unlucky, but as I said before there is no woman out there who doesn’t go through some form of sexual harassment or assault.

    And if the vast majority of men would be nice, empathetic people we wouldn’t have to discuss these matters. And rape and other forms of sexual assaults wouldn’t be so common and in some cases so brutal.

    IN MY COUNTRY, there is just mockery for women and no kind of help. Trust me, I know what I am talking about.

    There are men who I don’t dismiss as twisted, THAT is why I said “the vast majority” and not “all men”.

    I am sorry if you feel judged, but just imagine what life can be for a woman in a world where men treat women as objects and where she can be beaten, raped, killed or at least mocked and ridiculed for the sin of being a woman and sometimes a victim of men’s abuses. And then come and tell how life is so hard for you.

    To end this discussion, I have never met at least one who thinks and treats women as their equal. In the best case,s they think woman should not be treated bad as long as they are subservient.

  56. Prison rape is a crime and should be prosecuted as such. When condoned or ignored by prison authorities, it constitutes a violation of the 8th amendment’s prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.

    Having said that, however, prison rape, which overwhelmingly consists of heterosexual males forcibly raping other males (who may be hetero- or homosexual) is a fundamentally misogynistic act. When no female victim is available, the rapist substitutes a readily available male victim. Prison rape victims are often referred to as “bitches,” are given female names, and forced to perform menial “women’s work” tasks.

    The statement that male rape victims outnumber female victims by a factor of 3 to 1 is patent nonsense. Department of Justice statistics indicate that more than 90% of rape victims are female. Male rape victims deserve our support, but to suggest that rape is something other than a crime of violence against women is intellectual dishonesty in the extreme.

    • Let me see if I’ve got this right – a man attacking another man is “fundamentally misogynistic”. Hmmm. I think you might be reaching a bit. While I would agree that prison rape can have misogynistic qualities, to say that these violent acts perpetrated against men are “fundamentally” misogynistic is a bit of a stretch. I could no more buy your argument than I could buy one that was trying to pretend that acts of violence against women are “fundamentally misandristic”, regardless of whatever names the perpetrator might me calling the victim.

      And you’ve misunderstood my statement about the 3-to-1 ratio. I didn’t say “number of victims”, I said “number of rapes”. When a man is raped in prison, he is marked as a victim, and is very likely to be brutalized hundreds or thousands of times, so the number of rapes each year is much higher for men than it is for women.

      Also, as bad as reporting is for women, it is much worse for men. Imagine you are locked in a cage with your rapist. Think you’re gonna tattle on him? Even if he did get taken away, the prison code is universal: Snitches get Stitches. So, if anything, that 3-to-1 ratio is probably low.

  57. Which country do you come from? In my country, women are generally treated as equals, in fact men are often dominated by them as far as I can tell. New Zealand has a very strong history of feminism. We were the first country in the world to give women the vote, and one of the first to have a woman prime minister…. My mother is a feminist.

    In my country, the vast majority of men are very judgemental of men who mistreat women, and no one I know does this.

    I am not saying that women are not mistreated by men. I do say that men are also mistreated by women.

    I personally believe that many women use men, manipulate them emotionally, and feel that women rape emotionally.

    Many women see men as interchangeable tickets to security and a good time. More often than not, if a man is incapacitated or loses his ability to work, his wife leaves him. Men are expected to always be in control, always know what to do, not to express emotion or vulnerability. they are expected to be violent if necessary and to be dominant. Women expect this of men. Even self professed feminist women. I think we are all victims of millions of years of cultural and evolutionary conditioning.

    I’m not sure how we go about fixing this. Feminism has created a frame work for addressing this, which is why I am interested. Although I don’t necessarily agree with some tenets of feminism.

    Gender stereotypes cut both ways.

    I doubt that the vast majority of men joke about rape. But I don’t know where you come from. I am very sorry you have experienced the the things you have and I don’t make light of that. I have had times in my life when I have disliked all women because I felt I had been mistreated, and I have not had anything near happen to me what has happened to you.

    But I do understand that it becomes difficult to not judge all people because of ones experiences.

    I think its called generalisation.

    I have always wanted an equal, a woman who takes as much responsibility as I do and doesn’t expect me to handle everything and always know what to do. Who doesn’t fall for the same old alpha- male crap.

    This is pretty hard to find.

    Even as I write this I feel compelled to say ” I can do Alpha Male” I can be very masculine. But why the should I modify my behaviour to fit other peoples expectations?

    I am not a feminist. But I do support many aspects of what feminism fights for, and feminism provides far more resources on gender issues than any other heading.

    Its obvious that my issues are not the same or indeed as serious as yours.

    They are still important to me though.

    largely in as much as trying to understand what it means to be male considering what some men do, what is expected of us by women, and the changing expectations of society.

    Thanks again for the reply,..

    Quinn

  58. I have been following this conversation for some time now and I am curious.

    Why would members of the ‘pick-up-artist’ community feel a need to seek feminists’ approval for their activities? Couldn’t they just proceed as they see fit and ignore feminists’ opinions?

  59. Whats a pick up artist? Its not just feminists aproval that people seek its aproval full stop isnt it?.. ie they want to know that they are good peope or at least not “bad” people…. Feminist movement is one of those that kind of stakes out the finer points of morality, or at least discusses them , and I love it for that….

    To be honest, I’ve been thinking about this, which is a good thing… thats why I’m interested in this site… because I want to learn…which may mean admitting that Im wrong or have mis understood something…

    and on the whole joking about rape thing…. yes there are constant jokes about rape…. when I think about it…. like when your woeking and things get really really busy you might joke that you and your workmates got “bent over the bench” …. and yeah there are 1 or 2 jokes mentione now and then, and I am guilty of this… about men and women… though the one about femal rape is way more taboo…. and to be honest its actually not neccesarily rape… its more like a woman consenting to have sex with more than one man… And I wont mention it….. its one of those lines thats only “funny” because it is So SO SO Wrong…..
    Its a nevous laughter… in the same way that people joke about suicide bombers, I mean that is NOT funny…. but in some way… joking about serious and often disturbing things can be a relief from always walking the sort of social tight rope of political correctness…… along with not being egotistical, not being rude, not being stupid, being relatively up to date cultured, with the times etc… It kind of gets tiring, which is why I think the guilty pleasure of an incredibly innapropriate joke can be so appealing. But I dont think anyone would ever joke about somebody, as in an actual person, being raped. Never. its not funny. its sick.
    And maybe all jokes of this nature are sick…. about all sorts of things. Jokes about guys getting “butt raped” are so common….. but nobody ever really thinks thats so bad….

    I dont know… but I had to admit, yup its true, there are jokes about rape. And I know one. And I’d hate to think what somebody would feel having had that done to them would feel reading about it…

    Theres a lot of jokes about gay people too in m famil, and I often worried that if one us really was gay it would be terrible…. I think we all know in the long run that we love each other enough that of cours we would accept each other, no matter what….

    But does that make it okay?

    I guess when I mean men ( and women ) dont joke about rape…. I mean nobody finds the idea of someone actually being raped funny. It absolutely horrendous. Its awful. If that happened to any woman i my family, or much more unlikely any man n my family, although my dad actually was nearly when he was young….

    I’d want to kill who ever was responsible. I would. Id go to jail for it. I understand the anger. I feel like that about it too. Humour is weird……. isnt it… sometimes it just doesnt make sense.

    • Quinn, I’ll think about what you’ve written and respond later this weekend, but just a quick Moderator note for now: will you please aim for comments that are within the guidelines of the comments policy for length? You do tend to ramble. I’ve let a couple go through so far, but the next one that’s an essay rather than a comment won’t get published.

  60. yup sure… i do find it hard to organise my thoughts. thanks for the feed back…

  61. JB & Quinn: If you want to discuss issues like male rape and such, why not make your own blog? I don’t think FF101 is obligated to acknowledge your perspective in this article (or any other article) because this blog is primarily about the female experience.

    I think it’s rather cocky (not to mention rude) to come into somebody’s space and tell them how they should phrase their articles. If the author chooses to use a food-related analogy to describe rape, that is her prerogative. As many men so often say….. “if you don’t like it, don’t read it”.

    Bottom line: Go get your own blog. They are free, ya know. It isn’t FF101′s duty to tell your story; that’s up to you.

    • Aaaahhh…Sweet Honesty, I feel your pain. In the seven years that I have had a website open for female survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault, I cannot count the times I’ve been derided for discriminating against male rape victims – with the usual tirades about the “injustice” that feminists fuel. My answer is always similar to yours: Plenty of free webhosts out there – create a resource yourself for the group you claim I am marginalizing. So much whining and so little action is wearying, but I never feel apologetic for creating a resource for women, which consider that I am within my rights to have done.

      Of course we see this in it’s worst form when “men’s rights” groups start suing shelters for “discrimination….”

      Great blog this-I am glad to have come across it and will visit often.

    • Not sure how much of this is directed at me, since I was simply responding to specific statements made by AS and Nell, not tigtog.

      As to the suggestion that I should go get my own blog, I suppose that that could be said to anyone on here who is sharing her experience.

      If I had my own rape story to tell, that’s probably what I’d have talked about, but thankfully I am one of the few women who has never been raped. My big brother wasn’t so lucky. He was raped in jail and he killed himself eight months later.

      So I apologize if I get a little upset when I see sweeping generalizations that seem to suggest that his experience wasn’t valid.

      • As to the suggestion that I should go get my own blog, I suppose that that could be said to anyone on here who is sharing her experience.

        I believe I said that anybody who wanted to discuss off-topic material (eg. “rape happens to the menz too!!!”) should get their own blog. Why should those who discuss Feminism get their own blog, since this blog IS about Feminism???

        So I apologize if I get a little upset when I see sweeping generalizations that seem to suggest that his experience wasn’t valid.

        Nobody suggested anything like that. You’re putting words in people’s mouths.

  62. I am from Romania and people here are extremely misogynistic. Even women shy away from feminism more from ignorance than anything else. Ignorance and the lack of desire to educate oneself before opening the mouth and blurting out stupid things.

    I don’t get why men have to say every time a woman complains about something very important like this subject over here, that it happens to them too or why no one discusses their problems too. I agree with what Sweet Honesty said above and I’d like to add that everyone talks about how bad is for men, no one gives attention to women.

    When a woman wants to discuss some real issues she is labeled as crazy, a stupid emotional WOMAN and whatever she says it’s a stupidity, including any claim towards violence from men. Because, you know, men being gods couldn’t possibly do anything wrong, it’s just crazy talk from those inferior beings called women. It’s pretty much the same attitude a master has to its slaves.

    PS: I did remember a woman making fun of me when I told her about my story about my uncle trying and almost succeeding in raping me: she looked at me with a face that said she was on the break of laughing her ass off and she asked me if I haven’t confused things with a movie. I was shocked. Firstly because it was very hard for me at that time to open up about that and still is and because she was supposed to be a friend
    So that shows that cruel and insensitive people come from both genders.

  63. Unimagibale some people dont understand the difference between rape and rough sex. Rape is not consensual. Rough sex usually is.

    no = no.

  64. Further to my earlier point, I just thought I would share here how NZ is considering some potential changes along the lines I was talking about, e.g. perpetrator requiring a ‘yes’ from the other person, rather than just proving that they did not say ‘no’.

    http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/5747277/changes-mooted-for-sex-trials/

    Tigtog: not sure on your policy on links but it really is an interesting, on-point article!

    • double, I’m always happy for people to share interesting links!

      There’s been some noise about moving to a positive consent model here in NSW as well, but so far it’s just noise.

  65. I have to give kudos. This is the best ever handling of this subject I’ve ever seen. Vivid & clear & to the point. It even actually brought tears to my eyes a little.

  66. The recent rape incident in Goa and the minister’s outrageous remark justifying it (by saying the victim invited it), has stirred a lot of emotion among us. Your post is so powerful, that anybody, I repeat ANYBODY, would understand how disgusting and outrageous, rape actually is. I hope a lot of people get to read this, so it makes us more humane and less brutal.

  67. JB, what you’re doing is known as “What about the MEN?! OMG, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ?!” It’s a common trope of anti-feminist trolls, who frankly don’t appear to give a shit about men but REALLY want to interupt womens’ discussions about rape, etc., etc., and make us feel bad about daring not to put men first and foremost in our thoughts, lives, and priorities at all times. Such is male privilege that if somewhere a woman dares to ignore mens’ issues for any length of time at all, a guy’s dick shrivels and dries up.

    If prison rape matters that much to you, you’d take note that women get raped in prison as well, and you’d go around talking about both of these issues on male-centerd blogs. Or you’d start your own blog. As near as I can tell, you’ve done and do neither.

  68. That was an excellent analogy. As a man, this article probably helped me to understand rape better than anything I have read before.
    And for what it is worth, I dont believe it was such a stupid question to start with. Assuming the question was genuine and not an attempt at trolling.

  69. Here’s a question for you, Rodney? Why would you assume that such a question is, at best, incredibly stupid and wrong-headed? It makes light of rape. Is that okay with you? Most jerks asking this type of thing would be men. Now, why would you trust somebody making light of rape?

  70. I find it very ignorant when people say that rape isn’t that big of an issue because it’s basically rough sex. When I think about this issue and imagine myself being the victim, just thinking about it makes me angry. I can imagine all the different looks from others, such as people thinking you deserve it for dressing like a slut or people who pities you. It can cause physical and mental damage to a person.

  71. ” .. it almost seems that it would be better to risk sentencing an innocent man for the sake of ensuring that justice is done in any case of this male-dominated crime that psychologically damages women in a painfully deep, lasting way … ”

    … and of course, if that “innocent man” happened to be your son, or your brother, you’d still feel the same way?

    I’m not condoning rape, nor would I attempt to dismiss the effect it has on it’s victims, or making any form of excuse for anyone, but you need to think about what you have written.

  72. How interesting, Phillip, that you don’t care about the rape victim who might be your daughter, wife, sister, etc., etc.,….

    Mens’ fear of so-called false rape accusations is so unreasonable and paranoid that one has to conclude that it’s not rape their fear but long-delayed justice.

  73. Ginmar,

    Of course I care about rape victims! However, you need to read again what the commenter has written:

    ” … it almost seems that it would be better to risk sentencing an innocent man for the sake of ensuring that justice is done in any case … ‘.

    I believe he or she is very misguided in suggesting this, and the comment stands out on this page for being so misgjuided. I am not paranoid about false rape accusations, but this person seems to be suggesting that the burden of proof be reduced or reversed in cases of sexual assault, just in case some guilty rapist might otherwise slip through unpunished.

    BTW Ginmar, I do not wish to derail this post, but I suggest to you that there is nothing in my comment to indicate that I “don’t care about the rape victim.” I merely addressed and attempted to apply a little perspective to one misguided comment by another person. With all due respect, I ask that you do not put words in my mouth, or thoughts in my head.

  74. Yeah, dream on, dude. I call ‘em like I see ‘em and you’re just another dude with an obsession with the incredibly rare false rape accusation. The fact is, innocent guys have more to worry about from lightning strikes, yet fear of false rape accusations—and obsession with them—is very revealing. You chose to comment on something exceedingly rare while ignoring something incredibly common. You know what’s funny? I’m afraid of a lot of shit in my life, but I don’t have fear of bullshit like that. Men are obsessed beyond all reason with being nabbed for what they call false rape accusations. My bet is that that they know they’re not false.

    It’s kind of interesting to read the research, though. It reminds me of how, when various researchers–Koss, Lysek—-question about about men, they’ll cop to all manner of horrible things as long as they don’t have to call it rape. They’ll describe threats, violence, threats of violence—-but call it rape and they clam up. There’s no evidence that they feel bad about anything but the possibility of getting caught. They’re very clearly rapists, and some of them are obviously serial rapists, moving freely through society, because they haven’t been caught. I kind of suspect they have friends, too, who defend them against those pesky false rape accusations. There’s certainly lots of people who are obsessed with that.

    You said not one word about rape victims till I brought it up. It’s all about the poor rare dude who gets falsely convicted, based on speculatoin on one person on the internet. Yeah, dude, do you really think there’s a chance of this happening? No. But you have to say something about it because you can’t let it go.

  75. Ginmar,

    This is obviously not the place to debate the merits of one comment, and I have no intention of derailing the post by continung to do so. I am not obsessed with anything, however, there is a multitude of ways to deal with the issue of sexual assault, but rejigging the justice system to change the burden of proof, or the presumption of innocence, on the off-chance that a guilty person may escape conviction, is not one of them. I still believe the commenter was misguided, but I have no argument with anything else I have read on this post, and that is why I made no comment on any other issues, because I had nothing to add.

  76. Of course its BAD!… its not just rougher sex!… sex has to be consentual between both partners regardless man or woman. Just becasue both may like it doesnt make it right one bit. Sex is a sacred thing between people who at some level or another actually care about each other in some way. It must be consentual for both parties ofr it to even be enjoyable. For someone to think other wise is absolutely ridiculous to me.

  77. I don’t understand why there has to be an analogy for this subject. Why can’t ‘favourite dessert’ just be sex? Sex is good. Sex is good when you choose to have sex. If it’s forced on you it’s traumatic and scars you for life.

    No dessert needed.

  78. That question is disgusting! Yes some women like rough sex but even then its on their terms, whereas a man forcing a women to have sex with him against her will is COMPLETELY different! Even if the man was tender & passionate, as soon as a women says no she has the right to her own body & nobody should be allowed to take her as they wish!

  79. You know, I never really understood why people didn’t think rape jokes and stuff were funny, though I understood about rape culture and stuff. Or I thought I did.
    But then I read this. I have an eating disorder in that because of my phobia of vomiting, my eating is disordered. The analogy really touched me and I found myself turning away from the screen to try to get control of my gag reflex. I was thinking, who would write this? Why would someone write something so graphic and terrible?
    That’s when I got it.
    Thank you for helping me understand a little better.

  80. Wow! I can’t believe that some idiots would really compare rape with choosing to have sex with somebody. Perhaps even somebody you’re not attracted to. Well, these idiots say they like sex, would they like getting raped then? By some, fat, hairy dude, perhaps?

  81. The sad fact is that the consequence of women wanting sex just as much as men do is that women rape men almost as much as men rape women.

    National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010 recently released by the CDC this time actually counted how many men have “been made to penetrate someone else”. Although CDC didn’t categorize it as rape many would – the criminal law where I live does. The definitions is on page 17 in the report. Google it and look for yourself to see if you would agree or disagree.

    The tables on page 18 and 19 then show that for the last 12 months we have these numbers:
    Women who have been raped: 1.1% (estimated 1,270,000)
    Men who have been made to penetrate someone else: 1.1% (estimated 1,267,000)

    Of those men who reported being made to penetrated someone else 79.2% reported a female perpetrator.

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