Ask a question
Here’s a thread for readers/lurkers to ask a question about some issue that just really confuses them. If you’re just not “getting” why some event, action or statement is riling feminists, and/or why is it that something which seems trivial to you seems to be a feminist big deal, ask here and I’ll do my best to give a short explanation and then direct you to detailed readings on that subject.
I sometimes might take a while to see comments and then respond. I invite other feminists lurking to respond to questions when I’m not around. Just everybody please keep in mind that this blog is a flamewar-free zone, and trust me to moderate any obnoxious/offensive comments strictly.
UPDATE: due to the arrival of disruptive commentors, I’m sad to be required to point out that asking a question without demonstrating that you’ve at least attempted to find (and read) an appropriate FAQ will not fill others here with goodwill towards such questioners. This site offers a smorgasboard, not spoonfeeding.
Filed under: 101
Okay, as a (hopefully) feminism-friendly male, I’ll open up discussion with this:
What am I do do?
I don’t mean any of the obvious things; I mean this: I am aware that, qua white, qua male, qua &c., I receive unearned privilege in our society. I wish to behave with justice, and (more importantly) to provide what impetus I can toward pushing our culture towards a more just set of orientations.
But, as white, male, &c.’s go, I’m not especially rich or powerful. (Certainly not poverty-stricken, but.) If I simply refuse to accept any of the advantages my w.m.&c. status gives me, other w.m.&c.’s will simply sop it up, providing no advantage to those excluded from w.m.&c. privilege. That seems senseless, even counterproductive in that it concentrates privilege even more in the hands of those who don’t see the problem. Yet, to accept those advantages is in effect to be “part of the problem.”
The obvious idea, of accepting the advantages and using them to assist others without w.m.&c. privilege, is attractive, but flawed in that I am (as I said) not a particularly powerful/rich w.m.&c. I am not in a position to influence the distribution of jobs, wealth, &c.
The one thing I know of that I can do and have done is to distribute copies of a text: the text that changed my own life significantly, Alice (”James Tiptree, Jr.”
Sheldon’s science fiction novella “The Women Men Don’t See.” And I try to see to it that my own language, actions, blogging, etc., are at least not making the situation worse.
But I’m open to (desperate for) suggestions for something more … effective? Constructive? Somewhere in that meaning space, anyway.
Let the party begin…
Good question. Firstly (not that I think this was what you’re asking) there’s no one thing that a feminist or feminist ally can do “for feminism” and tick it off as well, that’s feminism done then.
Secondly, as far as privilege goes, I think the premise you offer above is somewhat flawed. Even if you go countercultural entirely, giving up on capitalist consumerism and the status quo and/or revolutionary hierarchies enitrely as far as you can, you will still have white male privilege in terms of the way that other people react to you and to your actions. You cannot give it up, you were born with it and you will die with it.
But having white male privilege does not make you a bad person. White male privilege is a problem when it is consciously abused obviously, and all but the most assholish acknowledge that. But the insidious aspect of privilege generally that many well-meaning people dont understand, and particularly white and male privilege, is what you just don’t see because it’s not directed at you. And this is what you can change and start to see if you pay attention and listen.
That’s the entire entry from Angry Black Woman in Things You Need To Understand #7, quoted in full because I couldn’t see where to cut a single phrase. (Her entire Things You Need To Understand category is well worth reading.)
Having no particularly powerful position in the white male hierarchy does not mean you are without privilege, even if your influence outside yourself is limited. You can choose to spread your privilege around on a micro-level by owning it inclusively when interacting with those who do not share it: listen when your habits mean that you normally wouldn’t, think about whether that “loudmouth” woman or non-white co-worker really does use up more than their fair share of the airwaves or whether your perception is being filtered through the privilege of belonging to the class who gets to talk, etc etc. Lurk on blogs written by people who don’t share your white male privilege, learn what pisses them off, and then DON’T DO IT. (That’s the easy part, really. The harder part: don’t let other people around you do it without you calling them on it.
Obviously there are ways to call people out that are non-aggressive yet state your stance assertively and calmly. Nonetheless, taking this stance is guaranteed to lose you friends and some easy camaraderie in the workplace and perhaps amongst your own friends and family. But that’s what needs to be done.
P.S. I think giving out the SF novella is a great idea, and is a genuinely positive act.
“The one thing I know of that I can do and have done is to distribute copies of a text: the text that changed my own life significantly, Alice (”James Tiptree, Jr.”) Sheldon’s science fiction novella “The Women Men Don’t See.” And I try to see to it that my own language, actions, blogging, etc., are at least not making the situation worse.”
Before I finished reading your entire comment, this is sort of what I was going to suggest. It’s great that you are actively trying to provide ways for others to gain the same consciousness of privilege that you have developed. In addition, (and maybe you already do this) you can write about these issues on your own blog and link to the writing of others about sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. to help their ideas gain more exposure. The less their voices are marginalized, the better. Also, don’t be afraid to call out sexism, racism, and privilege when you see it. When you notice injustice, call attention to it and expose it for what it is rather than being silent. One way to use your privilege is to know that when you speak out about something, it is likely that someone will notice and it has a good chance of making an impression. I think just the fact that you are willing to listen to others who are usually marginalized, and the mere act of letting them know that you are there and that you are listening and that you understand is extremely important. That kind of support lets people know that they have allies and it fuels their desire to speak out. I hope that others have suggestions here as well, because I struggle with the same issues when it comes to my white privilege.
Tracey makes an excellent point. From Sturgeon Lawyer’s post it appears that he is already largely working on noticing his privilege and examining it in his daily interactions.
The one advantage every white male has, despite any other socioeconomic inequities, is that when he expresses an opinion on a matter of prejudice/oppression his opinion is generally given more weight than the opinion of those experiencing the prejudice/oppression. So use that advantage to make the anti-oppression stance known and heard.
Tigtog:
Having no particularly powerful position in the white male hierarchy does not mean you are without privilege, even if your influence outside yourself is limited…
Indeed, knowing that was what prompted the question in the first place. I know that I have a certain privileged position vis-a-vis the current setup of the (Western, American) social hierarchy; the “no particularly powerful” remark was not to indicate a lack of privilege so much as an awareness of what limitations I possess. I know perfectly well that I’m not going to go out tomorrow and “smash patriarchy.”
That said, this:
You can choose to spread your privilege around on a micro-level by owning it inclusively when interacting with those who do not share it: listen when your habits mean that you normally wouldn’t, think about whether that “loudmouth” woman or non-white co-worker really does use up more than their fair share of the airwaves or whether your perception is being filtered through the privilege of belonging to the class who gets to talk, etc etc. Lurk on blogs written by people who don’t share your white male privilege, learn what pisses them off, and then DON’T DO IT.
is exactly the kind of specific, practical advice I’m looking for. I’m aware that I do have a bad habit of talking over other people, especially women; being aware of it is a step, but not a journey.
I’m interested by your choice of verb, “lurk.” I take this to mean that I should be there as a listener, to learn, not to show how much I know. But to me “lurk” implies not commenting, even to ask for expansion and clarification when I do not understand. Is that what you have in mind?
Tracey:
In addition, (and maybe you already do this) you can write about these issues on your own blog and link to the writing of others about sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. to help their ideas gain more exposure.
I do that, to some extent; I have a wide range of interests and concerns and all of them take their turn.
To both:
Yes, I need to be much more active about calling-out others whose behavior explicitly or implicitly embodies ism. Sometimes it’s hard to figure out exactly how to do that, especially when it’s my boss (NOT my current boss, I’m glad to say) doing it. I had a boss once who systematically removed non-whites, and especially African-Americans, from the payroll — it was so blatant that “even” I noticed it. I was afraid to speak out because I was new there myself. In retrospect, this was a huge mistake.
Hola! I’d just like to give a shout-out to you, tigog for all your work on this blog. It’s fabulous, and a lot of people I know have found some really useful answers here. Thanks so much!!!
That being said, have questions too, three to be exact:
1. As a self-professed feminist in a very fundamentalist and racist geographical area (coughbiblebeltcoughcough) and having come out of a very fundamentalist community myself, I am naturally met with a lot of flack when speaking out about oppressive uses of privilege and plain ol’ discrimination. It’s to be expected, but I’m often accused of trying to impose my “belief system” on others and taking on a “holier than thou” mentality, especially when talking about intersections of power around race and sexuality. Now, I spend a lot of time contemplating how I can communicate in a way that doesn’t scream DOGMA!, but it doesn’t seem to matter how I phrase ideas or present myself. So, it’s still met as DOGMA! The only thing that does seem to work is sharing personal experiences, but, frankly, I’m not strong enough a lot of the time to share deeply personal experiences with oppressive power. Do you have ideas for how to deal with and/or argue against this perception without making myself kibble for opportunistic evangelists????
2. BDSM. I understand most of why feminists get into a tizzy over the power dynamics, and I agree wholeheartedly. The problem is that I’m into it and haven’t a clue what to do. I feel like a total hypocrite publicly advocating for feminism and equality when I get off on dom/sub fantasies privately. I’m not involved with the scene and never have been because I don’t want to perpetuate degradation and humiliation of all things feminine (me and others, regardless of gender), but I’m torn. (No jokes please. I’m being totally serious.)
[snip some TMI for FF101 details - have emailed you privately - tigtog]
So, after all that background (whew!), my question is this: How does someone like myself make peace with her kinks in a way that doesn’t contribute to systemic, cultural degradation of women, doesn’t get her into trouble with misogynist ass-holes (even the internalized misogynistic ass-hole!) and doesn’t preclude the possibility of orgasm entirely?
3. I understand these questions aren’t really theory questions, but they’re significant hindrances to me actively using my privilege as a white, passable queer woman for my sisters’ benefit. Hell, the last thing feminism needs is another bald-faced hypocrite. So, if you can’t answer my questions (or just don’t want to for whatever reason), do you know of any place/forum/blog/person that can I go to get some good, solid opinions/perspectives from a feminist perspective??
Yes, for the first week or two. Yes Yes Yes. The internet would be a much better place for discussion generally if everybody did this more often when moving into new discussion arenas.
After you’ve been lurking for a while and got the flavour of the interactions of the place, and perhaps had your earlier questions answered/clarified in the process, then venture into commenting.
As for calling out others on privileged behaviour, it’s a struggle that needs to be made, but it isn’t easy and I can understand anyone being afraid of the reaction, especially if it’s an employer as in your example. Do what we can to get others to rethink rigid attitudes, that’s all. And listen to the less privileged when they complain, without uttering the “Yes, but not ME” that wants to jump to your lips. If they’re talking TO YOU, then chances are they’re not talking ABOUT YOU specifically.
So be a mensch and let others kvetch, on and offline.
Thanks for the praise, derSkorpion. You don’t pick easy questions though, go you? I emailed you privately largely because WordPress was playing up for a few hours, but also because some of your post was explicit enough to trigger overzealous netnanny filters, and I do want FF101 open to a broad readership. So I’ve snipped that part, and hope you don’t mind.
1. The ex-fundamentalist dealing with the community and re-evangelists etc: I don’t have especially good advice here personally, but I know that Heart at Womensspace is an ex-fundamentalist and now a radical feminist and her commenting community deals with some of those issues. Heart is queer-friendly but strongly anti-p0rn and anti-sex industry and you are less likely to get answers that are BDSM-friendly. Still, a good place to lurk and follow links back to commentors homepages to see if they are on your wavelength.
2. BDSM kinks: Patriarchy as a whole fetishes domination and submission some would say, so it’s not surprising that for some of us that gets tied into our sexual kinks. We all have patriarchal kinks of some kind I’m sure, even if they’re not sexual, and that doesn’t have to mean we’re feminist hypocrites as long as we don’t try and justify those kinks as somehow feminist choices in and of themselves. A choice is not a feminist choice just because a feminist makes it, but neither does a non-feminist choice take away a woman’s Feminist Card.
I think you might find a sex-positive BDSM-sympathetic forum either at or through Belledame’s blog Fetch Me My Axe.
3. Forums for good advice for you: I’ve put the two that first came to mind above. I’m sure other FF101 readers know of others as well. Please chime in, all.
And listen to the less privileged when they complain, without uttering the “Yes, but not ME” that wants to jump to your lips. If they’re talking TO YOU, then chances are they’re not talking ABOUT YOU specifically.
Thanks again — this last is particularly helpful. One of the things I often have to remind myself: what people say (and not just those of less ‘privilege’
is about them, not about me. This is a particular twist on that that will make it a lot easier to listen when my knee jerks and I want to dismiss what someone says as bashing of whites/men/etc.
der Skorpion- I’d recommend http://bitchyjones.wordpress.com/
She’s dom and a sadist, and she writes about her sexuality but also what’s wrong with the BDSM world from a feminist perspective. And she’s very funny.
this has probably already been said, but in my opinion it’s the most important way a man can show he’s an ally –
have our backs.
i’ll never forget the time a bunch of my guy roommates were all out at a bachelor party. i knew a strip joint was in the works sometime that night, and i was mildly annoyed at the guys for actually choosing to do something like that. well i’m sitting back at our pad, and around 11:30 or midnight, my friend D, who was at the party, gets home. Because they were leaving for the strip joint, and he’s not down with that shit. he just told them it wasn’t cool, and came home.
i also really appreciate my roommate R (i’ve pretty much always lived with guys), who can actually talk about housework without becoming a stark raving loon. he’s up on all the latest “women as unpaid household labor” issues, and he’s totally cool about it.
this is what it means to be a male feminist/ally.
crap, i totally though sturgeon’s lawyer was the only question thus far. oh, well. the above is for him (and for anyone, really).
No worries, opponax. People will follow the trail, I’m sure.
oh, and a question.
what’s a good way to explain to a nonfeminist why strip clubs suck? i’ve come upon a lot of people in my life who are totally down with them, and see nothing wrong or unfeminist about it at all. i’m not necessarily out to evangelize, i just want to get my point across articulately, preferably without overusing hotbutton words like “objectifies” “degrades” etc. even though the bottom line is that i don’t like strip clubs because they objectify and degrade women. i just don’t want to get the inevitable “oh, you feminists with your objectifying and degrading and empowering again…” what’s a good way to put it in plainer language?
i’ve already tried the “it hurts women” angle — man, convincing a non-feminist that sex workers aren’t all kinky co-eds who are in it for the totally hawt fun of it is like convincing a 12 year old boy that pro-wrestling is fake.
H’mmm. Strip clubs. Opens another question in my mind:
I’ve never been to one, though (as a male animal) I see the appeal. Then there’s places like Chippendale’s … the point of mentioning which is not, “Oh, men get objectified too,” or “sauce for the goose,” or anything like that.
There’s a huge difference between most strip clubs (which, I gather, are sleazy places where the women are exploited, etc.) and the rare place like Chippendale’s and, I perhaps optimistically assume, its inverse-equivalent.
Are such places bad? Why or why not?
Or, to put it differently, where does one draw the line between “pornography” (which most people agree is “bad”
and “erotica” (which I think most reasonable people approve of)?
Sturgeon’s Lawyer–
I’m a lurker on this and many other blogs, but kinda feel compelled to come out of the woodwork to answer your first question. I’m not a global authority by any means, but as a woman just out of college in a very (very very) male dominated field, I have these suggestions.
1. Do not catcall, stare, or make appearance- related comments. I know my legs look nice in this skirt; wearing it’s the price I pay for trying to look ‘professional’, and I don’t really care about your opinion.
2. Do not interrupt! So much of what I say gets talked over by my male counterparts, and then the same ideas get accepted as genius when one of the guys suggests them. From listening to my friends, this is a nearly universal experience.
3. Do not make sexually degrading jokes. Ever. Even when you think nobody but the guys can hear. If somebody else does, point out that it’s degrading. Don’t laugh.
4. Recognize that ’shrill’ and ‘bitchy’ are often used as silencing code-words for women who speak up in a way that would be completely normal for a man. Don’t dismiss women who speak up– sometimes we have to be LOUD in order to overcome problem #2. And sometimes we’re not loud, but because we’re talking while female, we get perceived that way.
Sorry if this is out of place– again, it’s just one woman’s top few suggestions. This is a good question to ask, though, and I hope you keep asking.
I’m in the middle of a discussion about stripping on another blog I write for.
I tend to go for “dehumanising” rather than “degrading”, because people don’t tend to shut off quite so quickly. But yes, the kinky student or bored housewife trope for strippers is really strong, because men who go to strip clubs really don’t like to hear that the women mostly have to be drugged up high as a kite in order to get through a shift, because that’s the only way they can keep on smiling at johns they disdain. The “kinky girls just earning extra money” fantasy helps them overlook the vacant eyes, I guess.
I don’t have figures to hand, but someone must on the levels of addiction in strip/sex workers, and how much of that “good money” the workers actually get to keep once they’ve paid “management” fees and fed their drug habits.
The problem is that it’s always the outliers, the very few sex workers who are indeed kinky students/housewives who don’t have drug habits, who write books about how much fun and financial benefit it all was for them.
I wish the Dworkin/McKinnon bill that would have allowed workers at all levels of the sex industry to sue for harm done due to unsafe working conditions had gone through. How many p0rn production companies, strip clubs and escort agencies would manage to get through a year without a lawsuit do you think, if they kept operating as they do now?
Yes … you’ll note that I didn&